Talk:Naturist hot springs

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From VfD:

Found during recent changes patrol. Is this supposed to be some argument in favor of naturism? Or is it original research? What is the point of this article? And is a single word of it true? Where are the references? --[[User:Ardonik|Ardonik(talk)]] 02:27, Sep 2, 2004 (UTC)

  • Weird. The west of what? Anyway, delete, or at least turn into an entry on whatever specific hot spring it seems to be discussing. Lacrimosus 02:52, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Merge with Hot springs? maybe? if not delete rhyax 04:50, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • It could be merged with the hot spring article, but that article itself is very spotty and quite incomplete. This we know after having soaked in hundreds of hot springs in the western US, Canada, and Alaska. We're Regional Contributors to the most respected hot springs guidebooks. (66.82.9.25)
  • Delete: Seems to be "natrualism" or "animism" and hot springs (i.e. hot springs as they function in animism? hot springs and natural sciences?), but it's pretty wretchedly misplaced. I'm going to bet that it's a c&p job from some other website, too, but I'm not worried about the copyvio, since I think the whole of it should be deleted. Geogre 12:37, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • Naturalism (natrualism [sic])is the study of wildlife, not soaking in hot springs the way it was done for thousands of years (possibly millions of years on other continents) before bathing costumes were invented less than 200 years ago.
      It's not c&p; it's our original work. (66.82.9.25)
  • Delete. "Naturist" is being used in the context of "nudist" (a topic that gets a surprising number of google hits). There might be some useful tidbits to merge into Hot springs but without any context it's almost impossible to say. Rossami 23:44, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • "Naturist" and "nudist" aren't necessarily interchangeable in the context of this piece, because the Native Americans were not nudists but their use of the Sacred Waters was decidedly naturist.
      We don't know if this is the proper procedure, but we could find no other means to defend our original work and express the opinion that the piece should not be deleted. (66.82.9.25)
  • We cannot find any place to vote against deletion, so we're commenting here.
((1) Is this supposed to be some argument in favor of naturism? Or is it original research?)
This is original research done by us in dozens of locations throughout the western United States over 9 years time. 66.82.9.19 05:23, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
((2) What is the point of this article?)
To offer a piece of geological and, moreso, cultural history to Wikipedia. 66.82.9.19 05:23, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
((3) And is a single word of it true? Where are the references?)
If the Native Americans who told us this part of their oral history and if the geologists know what they're talking about, then every single word is true. 66.82.9.19 05:23, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Camilla Van Sickle & Bill Pennington
hotsprings@el-dorado.com
(66.82.9.25)
  • Comment (no vote): Your edits were very confusing! For a time, I couldn't tell who was replying to whom. I've tried reworking your comments as best as I could. Try to keep paragraphs and signatures intact the next time you reply, put later replies below earlier ones, and sign your name with four tildes, like so: ~~~~ --[[User:Ardonik|Ardonik(talk)]] 21:11, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)
    • Will do. Thank you for the helpful pointers. 66.82.9.19 05:23, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

  • Another comment (still not voting): the article's creators asked how they might defend the article on my talk page:
    Dear Ardonik,
    Thank you for the helpful pointers.
    Is this the correct way to contact you?
    How else may we defend the piece we contributed from deletion?
    66.82.9.79 02:31, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)Camilla Van Sickle & Bill Pennington
    hotsprings@el-dorado.com
This was my response, which I thought would be appropriate to copy over here.
  • In order for the article to stand, it will need to be wikified--that is, brought in line with the standards that the community has adopted for other articles on the Wikipedia. The community will often do this for you, if some kind editor can see the potential in a raw article, but what are we supposed to do when we can't see that potential? That's what VfD (Wikipedia:Votes for deletion) is for; in addition to being a chopping block for articles without encyclopedic merit, VfD is a place where many articles have been beaten into a workable form out of sheer desperation. It happens to many people, so please don't feel as though this process is singling you out.
    I was the one who nominated the page for deletion, so I do not feel that I am eligible to vote for either its retention or its deletion. As I know next to nothing about the topic at hand, I can only offer you my personal opinion.
    1. First, I think that throwing around the term "naturist" and implying that ancient Native Americans considered themselves naturists is not helping anyone understand your intent. There also appears to be some confusion here between naturalism, which is the study of nature, and naturism, which is the term modern nudists prefer to "nudism." I think that the focus should instead be on how Native Americans used hot springs and what specific religious rites were associated with them.
    2. Secondly, I think that the meat of your article ought to become a section of the hot springs article. As contributors to hot spring publications, I'm sure you two have plenty of useful material to add. Don't feel as though any text currently on the Hot springs article is sacred; Wikipedians exhort contributors to be bold in updating pages. Your changes will, of course, be mercilessly edited later by others whom we also exhort to be bold. We usually like the results.
    3. Third, whether the article is merged or stands on its own, I think it could be vastly improved by references that allowed for independent substantiation. Add a ==References== section to the article for specific citations, or a ==Further reading== section so that people can learn more about the history of hot springs and ancient societies. No specific citation format needs adhering to as long as you provide enough information for people to find the material. We really like ISBN codes, though, if you have 'em. --[[User:Ardonik|Ardonik(talk)]] 06:03, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)
By the way, the extra spacing broke the formatting again. I've reworked the page so bulleting remains intact. And here I thought wikitext markup was supposed to be simpler to use. --[[User:Ardonik|Ardonik(talk)]] 06:03, Sep 4, 2004 (UTC)

Hello Again, We've massaged the piece a bit and added references; an additional reference is pending. Please, would everyone let us know what you think of it now? It would be fine by us if it were mereged with the hot spring page. Further, we'd like to other information to that page to make it more nearly complete. Camilla Van Sickle & Bill Pennington 66.82.9.55 19:44, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC) An additional reference has been added and we've changed the title, though that doesn't show up at the top of the page; will that happen automatically or is there a way for us to do it manually? Camilla Van Sickle & Bill Pennington 66.82.9.55 19:49, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

(Obviously I'm still not voting.) I'm trying to patch it up, but to me it still reads more like a tour guide brochure than an encyclopedia article. Too many anecdotes, and statements like "Native Americans revered the spas as a sacred healing place" will need more information--which tribes? How do we know this? (If there's archaeological evidence, by all means, let's mention it!) And why does the article refer to these springs as spas? The "spa" is a modern concept--shouldn't we stick with "hot springs" or whatever local term was employed to describe these places?
Couldn't find the book for your second ISBN, would love to see some external links (do you guys have a website?) Maybe we can move some of the stuff from the history section into a "Geologic history" section and a "Human societies and hot springs" section. Also need an intro sentence, though I'm not sure what it should be; in the end, I'm pretty certain we'll either merge this into Hot springs or vice versa, but either way, we'll end up with a much stronger article on the subject. --Ardonik.talk() 20:06, Sep 6, 2004 (UTC)
Copyedited a bit more. There's archaeological evidence now, but it would be nice to name specific springs (maybe Tonopah?) where specific artifacts were found. Does every hot spring in North America really have a history of human activity? I'd feel more comfortable with a statement like that if I knew which authority came up with it. (Not questioning its factual accuracy--I'd just like to know more--that's a pretty intruiging fact.) Did all tribes revere hot springs and enter them naked, or just particular ones in the Southwest? When you write "appease the gods," which culture's gods are you referring to? --Ardonik.talk() 20:20, Sep 6, 2004 (UTC)

The second cite was added; we had an extra number in the ISBN, for which we apologize. May we ask, why was the Elon Yurwit cite deleted? He's quite well traveled and glib concerning First Nation use of geothermal waters. As far as we know, the word "spa" is not a modern term but rather an old Latin term derived from "sanitas per aqua" meaning "health through water". In at least one dictionary, we've seen "spa" being defined by the word "spring". Certainly Native Americans didn't use that term, we agree. We'll keep processing this. Camilla Van Sickle & Bill Pennington 66.82.9.56 22:01, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

  • I removed the e-mail address because we don't leave such things in encyclopedia articles. Failing to obfuscate your e-mail address opens you up to spambots these days. That said, I'd still like him mentioned somehow if he is that important; if he or the organization he works for has a website, that would be perfect for an external link. Alternately, his organization's address might fit in the "Further reading" or "References" section. (You could also link to your website.)
    Fascinating stuff on the "spa" etymology--could it be worked into the article?
    Hey, thanks for working with me on this. --Ardonik.talk() 23:06, Sep 6, 2004 (UTC)

Please let us know how to navigate there -- we can't find the tab to click on. Camilla Van Sickle & Bill Pennington 66.82.9.62 23:46, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

  • No problem. Click this link; the big edit box will be empty and it'll say that no such page exists yet. Type whatever you want in the edit box and save--that'll all you have to do. To get to the talk page "normally," we click on the discussion tab on the article pages themselves (i.e., click on "discussion" at Naturist hot springs.) --Ardonik.talk() 23:51, Sep 6, 2004 (UTC)

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